Wednesday, May 14, 2008

tithing, By AMBERLY

So, in my correspondence with my mother, I brought up issues I have with the history of the church as well as issues I have with modern day happenings. I mentioned the issue I have with the church spending over 1 billion dollars on the City Creek Center (a mall) renovation when they have only given an estimated 31 million per year on average to charity.

this is what my mother said:

"I don't believe for a New York minute that the church spends money on any mall [...] I don't know where you got your facts but they are just wrong."

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"The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is committed to the development of downtown Salt Lake City as the home of its international headquarters. The Church is in a unique position to act as a major contributor, along with many others, to a vibrant, high quality downtown that will continue to be a regional destination."

citation here

"The $1 to $1.5 billion price tag cited for the City Creek Center is on par the cost to build many of the upscale resorts on the Las Vegas Strip. As a comparison, the Bellagio was reported to have cost $1.6 billion. The church states that no tithing money is being used for construction of the complex. They say the entire project is being financed through the church's commercial real-estate arm, Property Reserve.[2][3] Critics point to the definition of a non-profit religious organization and note that regardless of whether the church claims the project is funded directly by member contributions or indirectly by the proceeds of investing these contributions into other businesses, that the ultimate source of the funding is still member contributions."

citation here

"Salt Lake City, UT 3 October 2006 A premier retail, office and residential development will rise on nearly 20 acres across three blocks in the heart of Salt Lake City over the next five years, making the city one of few in the nation with a vibrant, mixed development of this scale at its core.

A conceptual design plan for the project was presented to the Salt Lake City Council today by Bishop H. David Burton, presiding bishop of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. The conceptual plan was presented earlier to Mayor Rocky Anderson who is out of town this week. The Church is developing the property through its commercial real estate arm, Property Reserve, Incorporated (PRI).

Demolition of part of the site will begin early next month, starting in the northwest portion of the redevelopment area. A progressive wave of demolition will move roughly west to east, followed by excavation and site preparation that will take about a year."

citation here: from the LDS website.

also check out the implossion of the key bank tower that John's aunt used to work at, here. this building was destroyed in the beginning processes of building the mall some time ago.

so in fact, you can see that the church is using tithing money (either actual tithing money or from tithing money interest- either way it still comes from the contributions of the LDS) to, in fact, build a mall.

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i am not trying to be offensive or show hatred towards the church. i just personally disagree with this. i felt like when i was giving my money to the church that i knew where it was going. after learning about this, i felt that was not true. i don't feel that the church is stealing from the members at all. i know that the members pay tithing with full intent to let the church do with it what it wants. i am just glad i don't have to feel guilted to paying 10% of my income anymore. because honestly, my whole life, i never payed tithing happily. i wrote my checks with a smear on my face. but that's just me! i'm glad for those of you who faithfully pay a full tithe! i hope this clarifies things.
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18 comments:

andy woolf said...

It's the Churches money. It's not the members' money anymore when they donated it. About your earlier comment about giving your money to the ACLU or Idol gives back, Even if your not a member, you should still give it to the church, a very significant portion of the money you give to Idol gives back and other "charity orgs" is used to pay the people within those orgs. All of what you give tot the church is used for what you write on your tithing slip. Your poor mother. I can't believe you disrespect her like that. You better hope your little girl doesn't treat you like you treat your mother. It would tear you apart. I have read all of your "credible sources" and let me tell you, they are not credible, they have wrong dates, wrong info, ect.... It is widley known that Wikipedia is not a credible source for anything. Heck, High School Students are even told not to use it because if it's flaws.

andy woolf said...

You can't believe everything you read on the internet.

Amberly said...

i agree, my sources aren't exactly "credible". but the information that i like that i get off of them, i confirm with church resources. sorry, but it's true.

and why is your name tubby? is it because your fat?

andy woolf said...

No, I'm actually quite slender, I do like to take baths in tubs though.

Anonymous said...

tubbs, there is only ONE citation from wikipedia. what's wrong with the other ones? besides, wikipedia, while not 100% reliable, is in my opinion a very good source. its called 'citizen journalism.' it is constantly corrected to reflect the truth. i like it eventhough its not 100% accurate, because it usually shows both sides of the story, as both sides of the fence get to edit it and stuff. so its pretty dang close to the truth. but who cares, it was only used once. the other cites - lds.org and the developments own website are pretty reliable if you ask me.

the information on this blog is all very accurate. ask any official church historian. they won't deny it. they will just try to "explain" it. seriuosly. i am not lying.

Anonymous said...

p.s. i know its the church's money. no one is disputing that. no one is calling them thieves. its just that who pays their tithing so that business owner's downtown SLC can have a nice mall??

it also goes to show the materialistic mentality of mormons. FYI, a lot of mormons are in a lot of debt and utah is the number 1 state for bankruptcy.

andy woolf said...

You can't base your faith off of what other people do. The Church was perfect until he let people in. There has only been one perfect person on this earth and there will never be another. Since you guys are so "open-minded" have you ever thought that maybe the church is doing it to make downtown more attractable to people? After all, it is the churches headquarters. Maybe they want to attract even more people to downtown to learn about the church. The Church helps more people than any other organization out there. The fact that they are giving money out for a mall shouldn't make you mad, it has nothing to do with your salvation. Also, there are Mormons outside of Utah. You can't lump all mormons to utahn mormans. I am from Utah and I have to tell you that I really don't want to live there because of some of their lifestyles. They have 5 credit cards maxed out, live in a huge house and drive all brand new cars. But that has nothing to do with the church. They have made some bad decisions about what to do with their money, Their mistake, not the religions. Like I said before, nobody is perfect. For me, it is simple. It comes down to asking god if something is true. He will answer you. That is between you and god, and nobody can take that away from you. It doesn't mean it is not true if someone does something to you, or if your bishop sins, or if the prophet sins. The church teaches not to be materialistic and avoid debt. Mormons sin just as much as anyone else. Just because some mormons don't follow all the teachings doesn't mean they represent what the church teaches.

Amberly said...

i don't base my faith off what other people do. actually, i don't have any faith. and if you read my posts you will noticed that i corrected my "open-minded" mentality. honestly, i don't really have one when it comes to the church anymore.

is this mark?

Anonymous said...

Wow quite the philosophy you have. I however disagree.
First, your comments about Joseph Smith may or may not be right. I agree with tubby with regards to Wikipedia. It is, has been, ans will continue to be inacurate. Specifically, anti-mormons (ex-mormons mostly) can post things there which, when taken out of context, will seem to be true when it is not. It has no credible sources and those posting don't even have the professional resposibility to present an unbiased and accurate account of the topic. News reporters have more credibilty.

Just like Wikipedia, Familysearch.org has been opened to allow anyone to post information about anyone's geneology, including Joseph Smith's. I personally did a search of him and got at least 5 different versions of the same man, born in the same town on the same day. How can that be? The only explanation is that someone is wrong!
Furthermore, you might disagree with what the church does with its money, but that has no connection with tithing. Granted, that money comes from tithing payers, but if you would have understood if you had listened in church to what was being taught, God doesn't need that money. What he needs is faithful church goers who can show him, through obedience, that they are willing to do as the Lord has commanded. When Christ was being tempted by Satan while he was fasting for 40 days, Santan even acknowledged that Christ had the power to turn rocks into bread. So why does he need us to pay tithing when he can get funds himself? Our paying tithing is our personal attempt at sacrifice. Just like Christ sacrificed himself for us, we attempt to follow his example by letting go of something that we want or need and put our trust in Him. You, obviously missed that lesson I guess.

Also, I can't beleive that you poked fun of those who got up in fast and testimony meeting to show their faith and concern for your family. You said that you didn't mean it that way, but your backtracking shows that you want to have your cake and eat it too. "Friends" don't belittle others and then turn around and say that that wasn't what you meant at the time just to save face. If you want someone to talk to, I would suggest you not burn bridges down in the process. If it was taken the wrong way, then you should have made sure that it wouldn't have been taken the wrong way.

And I cannot believe you still wanted to attend for the "social" aspect of it. I'm glad you "decided" not to go to church anymore. degrading another's beleifs and then sticking it in their face by showing up is wrong. Even if you do want to keep your friends, that's not the way to do it. Members of the church try to keep it seperate by things such as playgroup, and enrichment and other things that you are more than welcome to attend.

and I do feel bad for your mom as well. She is just trying to do what she thinks is right. She obviously has a personal testimony, and maybe instead of being a rebelious teenager you should have swollowed your pride and learned a little something from her regardless if you believe this church to be true or not.

And for not believing in the church anymore you sure do spend a lot of time trying to convince yourself it isn't true. The guilty flee when none persue.

Obviously someone has misdirected you on the information you have gathered. I personally know the church to be true, I do have a testimony of this church, and I feel sad for you and your family especially daphne, the church will always be here with open arms when and if you are ever ready to grow up.

One more thing, we keep hearing your side of things, what about john? Lets hear more from john...

Amberly said...

wow- you're wrong. but that's ok. i don't care. you sound to be like someone who knows me. i just want to say, that at least i have the balls to not hide who i am, or what i believe. and, as someone who is LDS, you're comments sure don't reflect that at all. i find it interesting that all these people who are mormon, leave the nastiest comments, and then hide their identities. sounds pretty hypocritical if you ask me. but ya know what? the people who think these things about me aren't my friends anyways. so i really don't care. i did not make this blog to gain friends. if i cared what people thought, i wouldn't post this blog. duh.

lynettieo said...

I read the Wikipedia article about the mall and I don't see anything wrong with it. The way you're reacting to this it's as though the church is stealing from tithes. Not true at all. And I don't hear a big public outcry from church members, either. So what's the big deal? Also, in order to have a nonprofit organization status, some organizations have to open their financial reports of income and spendatures. Although this usually doesn't apply to churches, I'm sure the church is not afraid to show their financial reports to anyone.

Amberly said...

I don't care what the church does with its tithing money. I'm just glad I'm not paying it anymore. I just find it so interesting that at first, you were very oppossed to the idea of the church paying for a mall when you heard it from me. But now that you find that it's true, you're ok with it.

Anonymous said...

The sentiment that tithing money isn't being used to fund the mall is absolutely true. You see, I once sold drugs and made a ten million dollars. Then I invested that ten million dollars into mutual funds; That made me fifteen million dollars. I took the fifteen mil, and built my dream home. Some would say my home was built with drug money. Nope. It was the money I made from wise investments.

Amberly said...

but you wouldn't have been able to make those investments without the drug money. your logic is flawed.

Anonymous said...

Wow. I guess the sarcasm wasn't as evident as I thought.

"but you wouldn't have been able to make those investments without the drug money."

That was my attempt as using an analogy. That's my point about the church building the mall without tithing money. It all started with the tithing money. Just because it was laundered through various channels, doesn't mean it isn't tithing (drug) money.

To be more clear. I agree with you.

Anonymous said...

Oh, I should probably mention that I didn't actually sell drugs. Again, used for analogy purposes.

Amberly said...

oh sorry! man i just thought you were an idiot. sorry again.

Melanie@Crafty Cupboard said...

Amberly,
I read the website for the mall and wow it looks incredible. I think it would have been better if built before the Olympics, but that's okay. I did see, as you cited, that no tithing money was going to be used. The LDS church is really business savvy, and this is an example to me how they are so. It is known that the Church has stocks in lots of big companies, and I personally know people who make monetary contributions to the church for purposes other than tithing. You should see some of the hideous art people donate to BYU that are conveniently tucked away... So, the Church ultimately has two sides- a business side, and a, well, church side, with two distinct financial identities. As a member I have been taught that tithes are used to help members in need--and I still believe that-- so I am glad that they are implementing their business earnings for this project instead of tithing. Sadly, even while I lived in Utah, I didn't know this plan was in the making. I always wondered what those conceptual renderings that were posted on construction fences were! Anyway, I thought I'd make myself known that I read your blog every once in a while. This post had me particularly curious.
I hope the mall spiffs up Downtown Salt Lake a bit- it is a bit sketchy. Yikes.
And I know you may not want to hear any, but I have some great personal stories about Mike and I and the miracles we saw happen that, what we believe, came from paying our tithing, as small as it was.

While I'm leaving a comment, I might as well go on! From reading your posts and things, it occurred to me that your beliefs and philosophy follow somewhat that of "The Secret." Have you read the book, or heard of it at all? Kind of a... live positively and positive things will happen, and vice versa kind of thinking. Katie was into it for a while.